Oblivion Re-Rated = Bad News
The ESRB just re-rated Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion from Teen to Mature. On the surface the bad news for Bethesda is that fewer units will be sold to an M audience and it's a little bit of a black eye as well because of the "nude content introduced into the game from a third party mod". Sure, it's only for the PC version but the news blurb will affect all SKUs regardless.
Ok, so the story is that there was no nude content in the game's data but some modder added it with a utility. In the case of GTA's Hot Coffee incident there was actually some hidden art assets and animations that were unlocked by modders and thus got that game jacked up by the ESRB as well - and it really affected ALL ratings in the industry past that point. It's now harder to get a lower rating because of these hacks.
What's the point of this all this? That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping. In 1993 we opened up all our data to the industrious and ambitious folks out there who want to see what it's like to be able to make their favorite game a little more like what they'd want.....and get a taste of being a semi-game designer in the process. The most awesome example of what this philosophy has brought is CounterStrike.
Now what's going to happen? You'll probably start seeing game data files becoming encrypted and the open door on assets getting slammed shut just to keep modders from financially screwing the company they should be helping. And the day a game company's file encryption is hacked to add porn and the case goes to the ESRB for review - that's when we'll see how well game companies are protected from these antics and what the courts will rule. Hopefully it'll be on the developer's side.
UPDATE: In case ONLY this post is linked, check the main site for a followup post. Planet ROME.RO
posted by John Romero at 12:15 PM
125 Comments:
Personally i think that this re-rating is nothing but a hysterical over-reaction by people who don't know enough about the medium.
This is like re-rating a Movie just because some Fan added custom scenes to it and made it available in some way. People should stock up on common sense here, seriously.
Ideas are free, and if someone gets the Idea to Mod "Nude Skins" into a Game ( for whatever reason ), it is just plain silly to act as if the Original Creator of the Game would be responsible for this.
It was probably always possible ( with a certain amount of time and dedication, and probably in a more "hacky" way ) to change Art-Assets of Games to whatever came to one's mind. Just because nobody "hacked" Art-Assets of 'Barbie Horse Adventure' doesn't mean its not possible - increase the ESRB Rating of it NOW before its too late ! ( note sarcasm )
Also, Mods usually don't install themselves automatically in a magical way, there is always the choice of the Game-Owner to get a certain Mod or not. Which makes this re-rating even more a ridiculous step.
2:43 PM
That sure is a shame, the mod community has been going down for a while... but at least indie-developers are fighting an uphill battle
3:46 PM
It's worth noting that if the game files were encrypted, and a modder hacks them to add/change content, he would be guilty under the DMCA of circumventing security protecion or whatever it is.
If nothing else, that would be fairly powerful for the game companies in court, and with their own lawsuit.
It's a real shame to see this starting to happen though.
5:34 PM
Blame the politicians, not the modders. Modder can, in some cases, greatly increase sales of a game. Lets not forget that. This is pretty much the second time, one individual modder may have hit sales. I do feel bad for Bethesda though - tough break.
I can see both sides of the coin, and both the modders and developers are going to lose out if this continues. The fault though, is unfortunately with people not remotely interested in the industry - pinhead politicians!
6:02 PM
I really don't understand why the ESRB has re-rated the game just because of something that is not a part of the game...
At least I understand for the hot coffee case but for oblivion.......
7:40 PM
Don't blame the modders or the developers. Blame the ESRB for not knowing the difference between native content and third-party content. If the people rating the games are that f**ing stupid, then this won't be the time the industry is screwed.
8:31 PM
It's weird that you choose to single out the modders when there are so many other groups obviously at fault for this situation. I wonder if you would have reacted the same way if George Lucas had sued id over a Star Wars Doom mod.
9:41 PM
Why don't you lay the blame where it belongs, on the misinformed ESRB, instead of on the mod community. Unless you're bitter that those "semi-game designers" can make more enjoyable content than you.
9:46 PM
If George Lucas had sued id over the Star Wars mod, and won, we would have encrypted our data and the mod community would not even have begun. It's just taken 13 years for this situation to arise.
Whether it's the ESRB's fault for being so reactionary or the modders fault for causing the problem in the first place makes no difference - the net result is the mod community dying a slow death.
2:33 AM
What the hell? So you can go to Google and find a 3rd party mod that display nudity.. so what? You can go to google and search for "porn" and download real porn movies if you want.
And regardless.. the game creators should not be held liable for what modders do. That would be like rating MS Windows M because you can view porn on it. And the modders should not have to quit making mods because there's something wrong with the system. If the system is wrong, fix it.
4:12 AM
What the hell? So you can go to Google and find a 3rd party mod that display nudity.. so what? You can go to google and search for "porn" and download real porn movies if you want.
And regardless.. the game creators should not be held liable for what modders do. That would be like rating MS Windows M because you can view porn on it. And the modders should not have to quit making mods because there's something wrong with the system. If the system is wrong, fix it.
4:13 AM
I'm really disappointed with the tone of this post. A mogul such as yourself should be on the other side of the fight. Seems to me that you could use your game industry clout to figure out what the hell is going on at the ESRB and how things could be changed for the better.
What a waste.
7:14 AM
Actually Mr. Romero, the nude content does ship with the game.
1) Open 'Oblivion - Meshes.bsa'
2.) Extract 'femaleupperbodynude.nif' to \data\meshes\characters\_male\
3.) Rename the extracted file to 'femaleupperbody.nif'
4.) Run the game
So, with all due respect, if you're not going to do the slightest bit of research before attacking the modders, you sink to the level of the politicians who wish to blow this out of proportion. :(
8:21 AM
If George Lucas had sued id over the Star Wars mod, and won, we would have encrypted our data and the mod community would not even have begun. It's just taken 13 years for this situation to arise.
Yeah, but would you have exclusively fired shots in the direction of the mod community for that? Back then, from what I understand, you were thrilled that people were extending the game -- even without any explicit blessing.
The "situation" that's taken 13 years to arise is not the result of changes that happened in the mod community (i.e. its spirit has remained pretty constant).
Whether it's the ESRB's ... makes no difference - the net result is the mod community dying a slow death.
And yet you choose to point the finger at modders.
As a person with some sway in the industry I was hoping you might, you know, drive some conversation about how the ESRB needs to change it's take on 3rd party, unofficial mods. Or at least you could not perform synchronized jumping motions with them.
I have a ton of respect for you accomplishments John. I learned how to program (and how much fun it could be) by hacking Doom and QuakeC. Anything seemed possible. That's why your take on this is so disturbing to me.
9:52 AM
How irritating esrb is. In my country no one buys a game by esrb's ratings. They buy it 'cause they want to play with it. All men have the right to play games! This age ratings are irritating and stupid. Did games change anything in a childs life? 90% NOTHING! And when you are go in to a shop to buy oblivion and you're only 15 they say "esrb have changed the ratings, sorry lad you have to download it or buy it by your parents". WHATTTA HOLY F*CK! Hot coffe mod in gta?? Not sex is the problem! Its the hours of killing the people! and oll of these are why? Becouse america needs soldiers not young f*ck*rs. Damn the esrb, damn bush, damn america, and damn that fucking glitch what made by modders! Altrough that nude texture is not so bad, only the lower... it have no point. ESRB must stopped once and for all. They are f*ck*ng christians who have the need to rule over as by controlling our lives! Damn 'em!
10:24 AM
If ESRB rate ut2007 teen i gonna blow someones head. Violence instead of sex? LOL Christian motherf*ck*rs.
10:28 AM
Yeah, except its not like that, because apparently Oblivion had those models in it anyway. The mod just enables them.
Its not a matter of modders adding something new; its the modders revealing something that was already there. Now why did they leave this stuff in there in the first place?
11:00 AM
The ESRB maintains the nude art was shipped on the original disk. The mod just unlocks it. If you don't want your game to get a mature rating, don't ship it with mature art. Voila.
11:04 AM
Well, John, perhaps if game developers didn't put in questionable unlockable content, they wouldn't suffer the consequences. Sure, it's fucking stupid that the ESRB uses this as an excuse to raise the rating, but sometimes there's nothing you can do. Now, when the ESRB starts jacking up games' ratings because of mods that are completely 3rd party, then you can blame the modders. But even then, I still don't think they should be blamed for the ESRB being a bunch of stupid assholes.
11:07 AM
the net result is the mod community dying a slow death.
Well, John, I play on the outskirts of the mod community but like a lot of gamers/creators I read a bunch as well as chat with those of a like mind. The ONLY way I can see the mod community dying is IF THE GAME DEVELOPERS LET THEM DIE. How about game developers banding together and fighting crap actions by the ESRB - like this one? How about banding together to use a small percentage of the hundreds of millions of dollars that flow through this industry to (and I hate to say this) start a PAC or other entity in Washington to combat the FUD that the squeaky wheels keep pouring out? You know, "buy" some representation that GETS gamers/gaming and that can fully understand what a mod is, that third-party mods are NOT under the control of the original creator, and that no matter what the intentions of the original creator of said game someone, somewhere is going to do something someone doesn't like with the content of the game. Hell, how about we get some common sense into our legislatures?
Two last points: 1) I'd like someone to explain to me why The Sims (any version) has NOT been recalled and re-labeled mature? They have fully rendered nudes in the game thanks to third-party modifications. 2) With Neverwinter Nights 2 coming out, and NWN 1 still going strong, not to mention Doom 1-3, CS, and _many_ other games still in the public eye and thriving due to the mod community how is it that this same community is dying a slow death (besides Hot Coffee + TES:Oblivion - two negatives out of many, many positives)?
11:15 AM
As far as I understand it... The mod caused the ESRB to go back to the game. The ESRB "took a second look" at the violence (or so they say)and decided to re-rate the game.
I just view it as an excuse for the ESRB to not look like fools when this all went down.
I want to know, in all of this, who was the whistle blower? Who made this mod and then directly alerted everyone to it?
11:15 AM
The nude texture file was there, you just need to rename a file in order to access it. It's basically the same as the Hot Coffee mod - just less severe.
11:19 AM
John, the art file was on the disc already. This is stated explicitly in the mod's readme and was also admitted by Bethesda. The ESRB makes no exceptions for locked-out content, apparently. I guess tha makes sense from the POV of a lawyer, though I still do disagree with it. I don't think the ESRB is going to go after companies for things solely created by modders.
The other element to this was apparently gore. I yet to figure out what they're actually arguing over with that part.
11:20 AM
It "makes no difference" only if you accept the outcome. If instead you choose to try and attempt to remedy the situation, then it is important to figure out who or what is at fault.
11:30 AM
Encryption doesn't matter. This will just encourage more people to offer binary modification, and we all know where that leads -- piracy. Don't say that's not possible or likely, since that used to be how it was done.
I've seen people wedge MySQL hooks into RPGs by binay patching. =)
11:31 AM
The nudity was on the game disc, complete with nipples, though not meant to be seen. Modders took the body mesh that was meant to be shown through gaps in armor, etc. and re-applied it over the character. That particular piece of artwork has since been patched without nipples, but it WAS Bethesda's artwork, albeit reapplied in a way they didn't plan for.
11:32 AM
From what I understand the nude art is actually on the oblivion disks, not part of the mod. So it's pretty much like hot coffee. The ESRB has changed their policy to rate all the content on the disk, wether or not it's normally accessible in the game, hence the ratings change once the file that was shipped in the game was exposed.
I don't see the problem here. They aren't re-rating games where the mod itself has the content that would cause a ratings change, they only are rating the content that is on the shipping product. It no longer matters to them if it takes a mod to unlock the content. I think that's fair personally. If you don't want the M rating, don't include any mature content on the disk. If someone downloads mature content from the modding community, well, that's no longer in the hands of the developers or the ESRB.
11:33 AM
this situation is crying out for a modder to create a bunch of filthy mods for games with E or EC (Early Childhood) ratings, strictly as a political statement.
"Just because nobody "hacked" Art-Assets of 'Barbie Horse Adventure' doesn't mean its not possible - increase the ESRB Rating of it NOW before its too late ! ( note sarcasm )" -- kill the sarcasm! Do it!
11:36 AM
games with nude...
music shows lots of big aSSes and other dancelidricous ideas, movies with nude, comedy with porn ideas.. all internet shows nude and fuc!@# for free a lot! the stupid asshole politicous undestand 2 things.. ASS and WAR.
Oblivions is wonderful, realy BAD news!
11:39 AM
I look forward to the day when teenage gamers aren't an important part of the demographic. We're half way there already.
Then stuff like this won't particularly matter, and there won't be the temptation to water games down for extra sales.
Might never happen though, looking at all the lame 15-rated films.
11:40 AM
John Romero said...
If George Lucas had sued id over the Star Wars mod, and won, we would have encrypted our data and the mod community would not even have begun. It's just taken 13 years for this situation to arise.
You, of all people, seem to miss the point. Had that lawsuit happened, there would likely have been a huge uprising, people would have attempted to force Lucas to grow a brain, Lucas would either drop or lose the case, and the reality of id's non-responsibility for third-party mods would have set the standard.
That's what you and the rest of the industry should be doing now, rather than grumbling uselessly about the community who keep things like "Doom" alive even now, however many years after the fact.
11:44 AM
Anyone who says this situation is just like Hot Coffee obviously doesn't know much about at least one of the two situations. in GTA, the 'locked content' was a fully-programmed sex mini-game, complete with animations, art resources, and code to control and score it. Oblivion's 'locked content' not only fails the elephant-test for pornography, but has a specific non-sexual purpose for its inclusion. If you're not aware, having a bare skinned model allows designers (and yes, modders) to have more creative control over the clothing and armor they create -- backless dresses, for instance.
I bet the folks at Bethesda are scratching their heads as to who could possibly have thought that the art assets in question were intended for titilation and not gameplay.
12:04 PM
This action is entirely on the shoulders of the ESRB.
While might agree that Oblivion should have an adult rating, they're doing it for the wrong reasons.
This is a game, where a player can beat the living daylights out of characters splattering blood everywhere & send other characters screaming and running for cover when they witness this.
Me comitting violence (& witnessing its detrimental effect on others) via my avatar is perfectly ok for all ages, but as soon as I can see boobies *gasp*
It's a mature rating.
Those priorities need to be straightened out.
12:33 PM
lol john
-YOU- put your game on -MY- computer, then you accept that -I- will alter it as -I- please on -MY- private property whether -YOU- like it or not.
Bethesda can black-out the nipples if they want -- being their game and their patch, it's within their rights to. But as soon as it lands on my hard drive that I legally bought and own, all's fair game to re-edit the data as I please.
12:34 PM
Blaming the modders here is wrong - please get your facts straight.
The file *was* on the disk, and therefore clearly a violation of the ESRB Rules. Don't blame the modders for that.
Modders are also not 'supposed to be helping the industry'. They are already adding value to our products by increasing their shelf life - but they are not bound to the ESRB rating, nor should they.
We sell international products, if we start to blame modders for making mods that are culturally not acceptable in certain countries (note: nobody gives a damn about a few nipples in Europe).
So don't blame the modders for making the content they want to. You don't pay them. You don't command them. You profit from them.
The industry is not handling this situation correctly.
Remember the Lion King incident a while back? Animators writing the word 'Sex' in the clouds for a couple of frames?
Outrage? Yes.
Product Recall? Yes.
Questioning the product rating system for the whole inudstry? No.
1:12 PM
Mr T.
Well, Hot Coffee which was an explicit sex game got it moved from M to AO rating, while the nude art file in oblivion got Teen moved to an M rating.
The way they are the same is that they are both content that's on the disk, but not available in the game proper without someone unlocking it through a third party mod.
Basically the policy has just changed is all. Instead of in-game content being rated, it's all content on the disk being rated. The rest of the policies are the same, so explicit sex gets AO, nudity (complete with nipples in the case of breasts) gets M. Technical reasons aside for designing the game that way, there is content on the disk that according to the ESRB system warrants an M.
On the other hand, I don't think nudity *should* warrent an M rating, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish, the idea that nudity/sex is worse then killing is completely absurd in my opinion, but I'm not in the "moral majority" here. The ratings system tailors to the moral majority.
1:17 PM
As others has pointed out, this was in fact shipped content - an easter egg supplied by the makers of the game. The only reason for any easter egg is for it to be found, which means it should be included in the rating - you have to assume it will be found.
So if you want to direct your anger at anyone, it should be against the developers who persist in adding these kinds of things to the games, they are the ones making the business harder for everyone, not the modders!
It's utterly unfair to blame the modders for something the developers put there, what purpose has that content but to be modded into existence?
I hope you'll update your views, big fan otherwise!
1:29 PM
The art assets in question included nipples. I can't think of a reason to include them that would help visual flexibility for clothing.
It seems that if the nipples had simply been blacked out rounded bits of texture everyone would have been happy. An interesting bit of perspective on the absurd views on what constitutes adult content.
2:00 PM
This is @(*$ rediculous.
By 14 years old most teens have seen pornographic images let alone pixelated, topless models buried into game data. Any 14 year old on the internet can easily download porn far more graphic than the topless model.
The ESRB is out of touch and so are fascists that support their ratings.
2:03 PM
"...modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping."
"You'll probably start seeing game data files becoming encrypted and the open door on assets getting slammed shut just to keep modders from financially screwing the company they should be helping."
I'm shocked to hear you say those things, John. The problem isn't modders, it's the ESRB; how anyone could blame modders for the ESRB's ridiculous policies is beyond me. ESRB's position seems to show a bizarre lack of understanding regarding how modding works. This isn't a great analogy, but if a buy a Disney movie, edit in some porn, and re-distribute it, is Disney to blame? Of course not -- that would be utterly ridiculous, just as this situation is. The ESRB has no right or grounds to go after Bethesda whatsoever. Modders should feel free to do whatever they like, whether anyone agrees with their content or not; the ESRB should leave the developers and publishers alone.
2:06 PM
While I don't recognize the necessity of the ESRB as an entity, I think they are doing the right thing as per their goal: to inform (ignorant) parents of the content of games. As many have observed, it's as easy to get these mods as it is to access porn on the internet. But if you turn that analysis around, you realize that it's therefore pretty easy to get the mods. So for the ESRB to be effective (in the eyes of the fools who think they're necessary), they need to factor in this content.
It's a bit of a slippery slope, but I think it's fair to draw the line such that "locked on-disk content" is on the "ratable" side. I wonder what will happen, though, when games like Spore start pushing things toward the dynamic-content side. If the game is flexible enough to allow you to sculpt phallic objects, should it be M-rated? Even if the game doesn't ship with any phallic objects pre-generated, but merely has the potential to dynamically output them?
2:13 PM
"That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping"
Put the blame where it belongs--on the BS ratings companies. Not on your consumers (ie: modders).
2:21 PM
What I don't understand is, why is the industry making such a big fuss about breasts in Oblivion. Not only did God of War have two pairs of breasts in it, but it even had a built-in threesome minigame. It didn't show a graphic depiction of the act, but it was heavily implied--like, shaking-the-bed heavily. Yet the media didn't raise an eyebrow about it; even Jack Thompson didn't say a word.
At least the breasts in Oblivion are realistic looking instead of the gravity-defying boulders in most games. Plus, there's nothing inherently sexual about the boobs--they're about as erotic as a National Geographic magazine.
2:28 PM
Please, someone make a Barbie Horse Adventure nudie mod and send it to the ESRB, Choy, Hilary, JT, and all major media!!!
2:29 PM
It is (except if you introduce heavy-weight counter measures) nearly impossible to prevent modding. But, you need to be careful what you ship If you include something that can be used against you (may it be nudity, or extended gore with more blood or a silly easter egg game) it will be used against you. You can only be sure if you don't ship something like that, period.
3:05 PM
It's not the mod community that will die. Modding was there before Doom, you just made it easier. The game industry is merely killing itself. As previously mentioned(and I saw it myself when I extracted the packages) the files were already in the program. As were countless text documents that said "Please delete this before the final build". If the game industry doesn't want to lose sales I have an idea for them. Stop releasing an unfinished product. Game sales in general are dropping and innovation is pretty much already dead. I was at EBGames(Don't ask me why) the other day and was looking at the new releases. All but I believe two had a number appended to the end. So game developers need to stop pointing the finger at whatever excuse they can possibly think of and actually turn it back around to who is really to blame. The ESRB were being overzealous with this last move, but frankly I don't blame them. They got into a bunch of trouble last time they weren't paying close enough attention and if they fuck up that badly again, I can easily see an unconstutional law being railroaded in that not only creates a new rating system, but this time one with the power of bannination. Who knows if the game industry could survive that long enough for it to get overturned.
3:07 PM
Hmm, first thing that comes to mind after reading the comments: sheesh, don't shoot the messenger. When I read John's post, what I read was "Modders have a responsibility to the game (and other modders) and this sort of mod hinders that great part of the industry. Verbiage aside, I don't think his comments are uncalled for.
And this blind resentment for the ESRB has to stop. Calling them uneducated and ironic at best. With all its shortcomings, the ESRB is still what stands in the way of the Jack Thompson’s of the world of having their (puritan) ways. They try as much as possible to be fair and they have to be in other to keep the government censorship out of our games.
Linked to that, the ESRB does not dictate content of any game. Not directly. It’s really unfortunate, but money drives those decisions. When the creative process moves from “let’s make a game -> oh look we got an E rating, neat” to “Here is the list of things we can do in order to get an E rating” then the process is broken. I think this event stresses just how much Publishers and Devs (to a degree) are just obsessed with the ratings. Honestly.. that should be a creative choice, not a business choice. Screwing up your creative vision for a letter is one of the reasons I’m thinking of leaving this industry and going to non-profits.
Side note: and if the god damn almighty holy dollar stopped invading every freakin step of the process, maybe devs would have time to filter some of this stuff out. On the few products I’ve worked on, all of them shipped with a butt load (bloat?) of unused content. Placeholder sounds, textures, even a few models of stuff you never see. It gets to a point where cleaning all of that cost more than leaving it. Up to now.
And a final note: The ESRB’s current rating system is a bit dated now. While they do have the “Game Experience May Change” for online games, I think having a mention about modifiable content would not be out of place and might cover this sort of situation.
Overall, I think this is quite the blamestorm. I think even consumers should take a look at their habits and question if they are really helping the industry.
3:08 PM
Apparently the childrens book "The hungry caterpiller" can only be sold in licensed adults shops now because someone went into their local library and scrawled cocks all over the starving protagonist.
3:11 PM
http://www.newsday.com/business/ny-bzgoog0505,0,2601653.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
just as silly..
3:19 PM
so basically a female nipple texture not accesable by default on the disk causes a mature rating in itself.
Thats pretty pathetic..I forget how backwards Some of these american officials are.
UpNorth here its legal for women to go topless..cuz its sexist discrimination not allowing them yet allowing men.
Yet 100km south of me a Mature rating for a nipple texture.
Sigh yay! overreaction.
3:23 PM
Why not add capabilities to the game software itself to allow parents to be able to disable and enable the use of 3rd party modifications?
Ultimately I should be able to create a mod itself and tag it as being mature or for kids.
What would be cool is that you could mod oblivion so that it would be appropriate in the other direction - switching out weapons and having a non-violent game if there is market interest. Or go the other way- either way having a standard that identifies the type of mod you are getting.
3:32 PM
Why are nipples evil anyway? Why is it acceptable that you can beat people to death, run them over, shoot them (thinking of GTA here, but it wouldn't be the only example), but as soon as there are nipples onscreen, it's suddenly bad for your children? Who in America is this stubborn and dumb? Is there really only a small group responsible for all of the nonsense that keeps happening over there? I mean, it's ok to show live reports from real war scenes in prime time TV, but when Janet Jackson's nipple is on screen for a split second, there is a huge uproar. How did that happen? How did people's minds get so screwed? What on earth is wrong with the biggest nation on this planet (?) that they all seem like complete and utter idiots to the other parts of the world? I'm sure that can't be.. but where are the clever people? Where are the people who have some common sense? Apparently none of them are in any position to make a difference. What a shame.
3:35 PM
Not to be overly critical here, but you don't express an understanding of what modding Oblivion involves. If what you were saying in your post was actually the case then I might agree with you, but modders are not the problem.
Bethesda is fully aware of what is involved in changing the nif files for this kind of mod, and should have known that leaving that artwork in the game would result in nude mods. It was sloppy of them to ship the game with the nude meshes, and the ESRB isn't happy about that. Blaming the modders is misplaced entirely.
3:46 PM
'That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping'
They aren't 'supposed to be helping' the industry. They are independent people working on their own time. If you want these people to 'help' you then hire them to work for your company - otherwise you are expecting to get something for nothing which is a bit rich coming from a multi-million dollar industry.
3:52 PM
what is wrong with female breasts? let's work on the people with the hang-ups.
4:21 PM
John. I agree with you on many, many things, but I think that you are wrong on this one.
Modders have no responsibility towards helping the game-industry. They bought the game and they can do with it what they want. If they want to make something awesome, that's great. If they want to make something really stupid, that's great too. It's their game.
5:18 PM
The ESRB's decision to re-rate Oblivion will erode their credibility.
Bethesda made a kick-ass, and mod'able, game. Go them!
Its common sense that a rating applies to an unmodified game, right?
Mod is slang for modification. DUH
When common sense and policy differ, credibility suffers. The rating systems are about their credibility.
Also, how many people actually consider game ratings during purchase decisions?
*shrug*
5:28 PM
Yeah like encrypting the game data files will work. Just like there is no way to hack an actual game to pirate it.
Gamers have grown up and the industry needs to follow suit. Publishers should release a Teen version that's censored and a Mature or Adult version with other stuff in it to not offend sensitive users.
This also limits the effectiveness of the ESRB by making them seem hypocritical. According to this stance, they need to re-rate every Sims game and Tomb Raider game EVER because there are nude patches and adult content galore out there for them.
6:15 PM
So, why not mod all games to include nipples and get their attention redirected off the game makers onto the modders where it belongs. game makers did not do this -- and their games should not suffer. In all actuality its not under their control. I for one can't wait to see nipples on the next car I race.
6:15 PM
it is easier to blame the game maker then the modders and they ofcouse beleave that they need to bleam somone and the game makers are the best target.
(but no this is not right at all)
7:21 PM
john, why don't you make a quality game first, instead of bashing modders that made the last few games you made a bit more bearable hmm?
7:49 PM
Yeah, that's right.
John is going to make modders his bitch. ;)
10:09 PM
John Romero - I've hung out with you dude, you were cool when I met you, Now you are still cool, you just need to re-think before you speak, before you become (un-cool). Your supposed to Represent a head of industry (I still think you are.. though other people here might not think so). You are supposed to set an example. Even when you speak on behalf of the Game's industry - People listen.
Ok, I understand what you are saying, but it's not your fault, modders faults or anyone else’s fault.
I know that there are people on this site that are not from the USA, but the origin of this problem is in the USA and that problem is the ESRB.
I understand the games industry has matured over the past 25-30 years and things are Uber realistic. I understand that as games approach Movies in looks and surpass the movies in terms of Profits, but they are not movies. The ESRB was only developed to suggest - key word is SUGGEST, the appropriate age to sell a game to someone based on its content. Thanks to the ESRB, we have corporations/developers regulating themselves based on what the ESRB says and the ESRB is NOT A LAW, it’s a suggestion. You sell GTA to a 13yr old kid there is nothing LEGALLY WRONG with it. Now I will agree there has to be some common sense on the part of the developer, but views Sex and violence in the USA is just out of hand, you know if it was taught to be accepted and viewed for what it really is people would understand its use in fantasy settings.
Back in 1984 – the PMRC (parent’s music recourse center) went to congress to try to get them to pass a law on all music that was, to them, vulgar or against THEIR IDEAS of what they felt proper music content was. All top artist of the time (my 2 favorites Bob Denver and Dee Snider) artists went all off on the PMRC, and defended their positions the only result was the WARNING – Parental Advisory labels that we see on most Rap and metal CD’s these days, which was the record companies who publish music Giving in sort of, not the artist. Did you know that those labels are NOT REQUIRED by law to use those labels! If you started an inde or personal music label and Recorded an album, of yourself or an artist that your label represents, that had Vulgar language on it – or a musical message that was against the norm, you are not required by law to have that Label on it. You might have a hard time getting a record chain to sell it (Best Buy, Wal-Mart, Tower Records, Circuit City, FYE, ect…) but if you did sell it or find a retailer to carry it and sell it you do not Break any laws.
The ESRB is pretty much the same thing, they evaluate the games and give it a rating, the game company puts it on their box, because if they don’t Gamestop, EB, Best Buy, WALMART, ect… will not carry it and Game company know if they are not sold at Wal-Mart / Best Buy or EB-Gamestop, there is no chance to have a retail success. SO they take the ESRB rating and slap it on their package. The retailers have enbrased ESRB ratings and took it one step further; putting into their COMPANY POLICY that their employees check the age of the buyer to make sure it complies with the ESRB suggested age of purchase for all customers. Retailers have made it so if the employee does not check the age and the parent comes back complaining, even though the employee did not violate any Law, they did violate company policy and they get fired. Employees are not being governed by the ESRB or the Law, they are governed by the Companies they work for – so now you have 2 tiers of implementation for the ESRB’s Suggested rating, once at the development level as developers have to re-think every piece of content when shooting for a certain rating and on the retail level where fear of job loss makes employees treat videogames as if they are Beer, tobacco, or even XXX magazines .
Now for the modders, we all know that the EULA or the Copy write in most cases states you cannot modify its content. Well that is true to a sense, if you take a game home and change it’s content to suit your needs and distribute the whole game with content changed you violate the law. If you distribute the Modified content only, as long as it does not have copy written code in it or Trademarked Logo’s. The End-user who is using your mod in their game has to implement it into the code themselves there is no Violation at all. Yes you can argue that the Mod itself does entice users into breaking the EULA because the modder has given content that would force them to do so to use it. Then again you can argue that regardless of what the EULA says, you own the software and if you want to screw around with the code yourself and keep it to yourself – who cares. We all know that this is how some mods start, with people screwing around with what they shouldn’t be screwing around with, but that’s a slightly different argument that can go many ways and I don’t want to bore you all with the moralistic and Legal annals of what that argument entails.
We all know that most companies either endorse or look the other ways to many mods that pop up in the wild. We see map mods all the time, sometimes we see mods to the entire game that make the game a completely different experience. I have actually seen mods that you have to buy… Yes I know most of these mods are professionally done by content companies that buy a license to the engine they are making a mod for. But there are the rare cases that some super smart Geeky end-user mods an entire game himself and puts it online for download and it becomes haled as a must have mod, and I have yet to see someone try to charge money for it.
Also, many games give the end-user the ability to Mod or personalize games and that’s something that is completely the end-users responsibility. Now while I agree that if a game rated (EC) has a game editor that will allow the kid to put boobies or profanity in the game, that’s a bit irresponsible on the company’s part.
Though most Editors are not simple to use, they require some to a lot of skill on the modders part and usually if they are smart enough to understand what they are doing, they are probably smart enough to understand what they putting into the game as well. Do you really think that an end-user would put boobies or nakedness into a game because he/she knows it will cause some stir in the industry? I don’t think so. I think they do it because (A) they “think it’s cool” or because (B)“hey my friend asked me if I could do that and I wanted to prove I could” or lastly and most legitimately because it adds a level of detail that is realistic to the virtual world they are modding, and can legitimately pertain to making the world MORE REALISTIC. Nudity is a part of life, and we in America seem way uptight about nakedness, again though that’s a whole other issue for debate.
Now we have end-users modifying content with Nudity or grotesque images to make the game a bit more MATURE / Realisitic. This is what happened with Oblivion, the game it self is PG13 (Teen rated) By the ESRB. Because these mods have become SO POPULAR that they found their way back to the ESRB and they want to change the rating. If I was Bethesda I would tell the ESRB – F$%K you. They did not do this at all.
Game like Oblivion, actually encourage modification as they sell ADD ON PACKS themselves to help the game become more PERSONALISED, or map packs ect…
There are even editors to help the end-user make more personalized characters and add unique features. Even it’s mission editor encourages imagination and modding.
Because some user put tits on a NON HUMAN character the ESRB wants a (M) Ratting? I find that utterly absurd. Now you have Industry greats like John Romero Passing the blame of this onto the Modders. John you know as well as I do if every gamer (especially PC gamer) took the cookie cutter crap that is given to us by publishing houses and we all sat down and played what we bought and just put it away when we finished it the industry would be in severe danger. Modders bring innovation; they give gamers ANOTHER REASON to be interested in the game again or to play it a little longer. It even gives the really smart Modders Practice for enhancing their Development skills as these modders could be the NEXT BIG THING, or develop the next big idea in games.
John, think about it a bit then apologize to the modders of the world, some of them have made your games a bit more fun to play and have given them new life, when their life span was far beyond dead. Also for ever one Bad Modder there are about 1 million good modders, don’t let the one bad cookie be the reason the jar gets thrown away. I think it’s an honor as a developer to have your game modded and have that mod give your game new life. It kind of keeps you happy inside in terms of knowing you made something still being used, or at least provided the canvas for what is being remade and still played. Seriously how would you feel as a developer if you knew your game had its time and it never was going to come out of the end-users collection again for the entertainment of the person that bought it, kind of hurts huh?
You can take this argument on from many angles. I’m going to lay out my opinions and analogies here, while I know some of them at face value might be unrealistic and can have countless WHAT IF scenarios they prove my point that the ERSB is a retarded organization and that what they are doing to Bethesda and the Oblivion title is absurd.
A Kid and his Father go out and buy a car each, Dad buys a 500hp corvette for $60,000 and the kid buys a $20,000 Honda civic. Kid goes to a speed shop and had $10,000 worth of work done (all street legal) the shop upgrades not only the engine but the safety parts too to handle the extra speed, just to make it ethically safe senero. Now the kid has a 500hp car for $30,000 and kid can either keep up or beat his dad’s corvette in a drag race. The Kid then goes out one night and gets into a serious accident on a street whose speed limit is 55MPH and his accident takes place at 105 mph. Well the car could go 105 before the modification, the kid would probably drive it that fast whether he had the modification or not, and I am sure he would have tried to get his dad’s corvette up to 105 as well if daddy left him take it out. SO is it the speed shops fault? Is it the dads fault for encouraging his kid to have a car with 500HP because by example he bought a 500HP car? No one is to blame here. It’s the end users fault.
Take it a bit further…(before the accident)
Now because of this, all that kids friends all go out and soup-up their cars to 500HP + . Some of these kids Crash their cars, some get speeding tickets, others Drive them responsibly and just get off knowing they have a nice souped-up car. Do their parents (if their kids are under 18 – don’t apply to 18yr old + - unless they are still on Mom’s or Dad’s insurance policy, then I think the parent still has the right to an opinion, again though off the subject) have the right to blame the Speed shop, the Kid who started the idea of all this or even the father of that kid for anything? No they don’t.
The problem going on with Oblivion, has nothing to do with them their rating should still be (teen) (T).
Second Example. – I know it’s not 1980’s anymore but still a good example because it had some heated discussion when I was a kid.
Person goes out and buys a denim jacket. He/She takes it home and decides to spray or Draw or even sough on a naked woman or Grotesque night of the living dead scene onto the jacket and walk around with it. Young children see this while the jacket owner is in the mall, on the street or out in public in general. Kids go home and re-draw what they saw on the jacket, or other kids go out and buy a jacket and do the same thing? Should the Jacket Company not sell their jackets to kids? Should art supplies not be sold to kids or even to people who intend to alter the jacket with some artwork? I mean seriously, you walk into an art supply store and ask for air brushes and tell the guy you’re going to go home and paint a naked girl on your jacket, think he is going to deny you the sale? Even if you bought a Nude girl on a piece of material and told the sales person, I am going home to put this on a jacket, think they care? Either way, You’re still walking around with a naked person on your coat and I am sure many people would seem offended by this. IM sure people would stop you and ask you not to wear that anymore. If what you did to your jacket gives the idea to others to do the same should you be ridiculed for it, banned, re-rated? Should all the manufactures of any of the parts you used to modify your jack that offends certain people be governed or given Rules on whom to sell to? Should the Jacket be giving a rating or a Sales age? I know this sounds stupid but the example has some truth to it.
When I was a kid I had a denim jacket that had a Slayer album cover painted on it. The cover was very bloody and sadistic and the side of the jacket had suggestive looking girls on it (not part of the album cover, just additional artwork). Lastly it was covered in leather strips and hard studs. I got allot of grief for wearing that jacket, Do you know that Mall security wanted me to leave the mall for wearing it there. They took me to the mall office and asked I call my parents to pick me up and that I wasn’t allowed to wear my jacket in their mall. I was 15 yrs old. I told them are your F&*KEN Kidding me. I actually tried to walk out but they tried to restrain me (not by force) by closing the dorr before I could get out. Finally I opened the door and just walked out, but they followed me around until my parent showed up and asked that I give my jacket to my parents if I wanted to stay at the mall. Mall MGT claimed people felt offended by the scenes on my jacket and they felt I was causing a disturbance just by wearing it. Thinking about it, the ruckus they created was more of a problem than the jacket. Did I know I would get looks for wearing it? Yes I did. Did I ever think I would be asked to leave a public shopping venue? – NOPE. At the time I knew it was inappropriate for school and that I could wear it to school but it had to stay in my locker during class hours and if I needed a jacket during the day it could not be that one. I understood that, school was not a place for it. My parents told Mall Mgt that by doing what they did violated my rights; they would not take me home if I didn’t want to leave and they would not take my jacket home. It caused quite a problem, but at the end of the day, guess what, too bad for them. It was my jacket ill wear it where I want. I have every constitutional right to have an album cover on my jacket and every right to have a close to naked woman on my jacket – wasn’t like she was doing something obscene – then it would be a different story. (Yes the album cover had a Warning Parental advisory label on it when it came out). Called freedom of expression.
Again you see the problem here.
There are so many degrees or what right and what wrong. There is morality and there is responsibility. When these things are taken out of context the result is catastrophic in its long terms effects on similar situations.
I would love to see this, and here is a challenge for all you hackers out there. Take the Sweetest most lovable (E) or (T) rated game, like a **TENDO title or something family oriented. Create a Mod that give the main character or something in the game something that would jump the rating up one or two notches and release it for the people who embrace mods to install / Use.
How weird or controversial (this is only an example) would it be if someone gave Mario a nude skin – or even the princess for that matter, I would love to see the ESRB tell **TENDO (don’t want to say the full name – you know who I mean) your game is now rated Mature because some kid though it would be funny to make someone naked, who gave it to a friend who gives it to a friend – ect, ect, ect until that mod is the most JOYSTIQed or DUGG story of the day. Now that would be a fight to see. I know you are all saying, how could you mod a game like that and not violate copy write or the EULA or something, I don’t you could but if possible would love to see it done. Would be interesting if the Mod was able to be loaded onto a memory card using a simple PC / Memory card interface (for storing and reloading saves) and have the mod work from there and contain no “Stolen code”. That would be something… Again I know it would never happen, but just imagine if it did. Is it the modders fault? I don’t think so, but would start a new heated argument.
I want to close with the following.
John Romero – I hope my long rambling blog helps you rethink your view on modders and helps you keep your mouth shut in the future on issues that are so absurd to begin with, there was no need to bash modders or even give a view on the situation, you are above that. Remember to many people in the industry you are a valued resource.
To the ESRB – I wish you and the PMRC and all other Organizations that say your there for the good of informing the buying public, would just go away. I feel it’s the manufactures/developers job to make sure they truly inform people of what they are selling. I don’t think you need a big (M) or (AO) Rating on your box to do that. Organization like the ESRB truly enforce a viewpoint of the most text booked, conservative, and life-style judging people in the USA. We really need to be more open, we just keep creating organizations to tell people how to think, life, and act. If there’s a law, people will follow it, if they don’t and they get caught they pay the penalty, if there is no law we don’t need another organization laying out what they feel are right and wrong guidelines for how to behave, act, or think about something.
Bethesda / Oblivion creators – Fight the power! – Tell the ERSB F#^$K OFF! Tell them we gave you the game, didn’t hide any content and your rating was appropriate. They have no right to re-evaluate it because of a third party.
Bye for now,
Chris D
11:49 PM
The mod community is "dying" only because Johnny boy here no longer has any influence on it whatsoever. That's what you get for Daikatana.
12:01 AM
this is not new in any way. There has been semi-pornographic content to almost all games that have gotten a modcommunity. Few months after Half-life came out there was already nudeskins to download. Also the same mod that were all so upset for in Oblivion has been availaible for years in the previous game Morrowind.
I'm not sure if Doom (the original) had nude addons since i havent seen any but I'm pretty damn sure it did to. As soon as you let people do mods there will be good ones and there will be bad ones.
The way to go is not to ban the modding but for the game developers to have a great portal for this modding where they also moderate the content. In that way nude-mods will only be sbown on small marginalised underground sites where the young audience wont visit.
1:22 AM
The Sims 2 suffered the same fate. They were forced to change it so that if you bought the NightLife expansion you could no longer remove the blur to reveal the unrealistic barbie doll like nudity.
On that note this is the stupidest thing ever, the topless textures that are revealed are so unrealistic that it bears very little resemblance to reality anyway. So it's the same thing for these two games, some "waste of space, holier than thou" idiot! is now being allowed to call the shots. Compared to the outrageous porn and violence on the net at any child's fingertips, fighting against the glimpses of barbie doll like nudity is a COMPLETE WASTE of time and money!
And do not blame us modders for this, doing that is an all time low!
1:30 AM
Firstly, let me say that I agree with John. The industry may be thinking long and hard about releasing developer tools, and allowing access to the games data files in future.
I think there is more to think about though. Consider these points, all of which I feel are valid:-
1) Why on earth do these companies leave a couple of naked textures in there anyway? Policy should be to check textures of character models prior to release.
2) It's OK to murder, assault and steal your way through a game, but not to see some breasts? Oh dear, what is the world coming to? I think the priorities here are inverted.
3) You can modify ANY almost any game with the will power, and add in any textures you want. No level of encryption has stopped this in the past. Hackers always find a way in, if they are determined enough. Do we now need to start rating games on the 'potential to have nude images hacked into them'?
I think it's sad that such pedantic issues become such a tarnish for creative companies, and lets face it games like Oblivion sell hardware! If it wasn't for the likes of Doom, GTA, and Oblivion the whole PC market would be completely different right now.
Nudity is no worse than the violence. Some people need to start thinking long and hard about morality in this modern age.
I would rather my child take an interest in sex, than an interest in murder, theft and assault.
1:48 AM
There is one critical fact you got wrong. The nude file in question exist in its fully rendered form on every PC game disc sold.
Read ESRB's response to Bethesda's claim of innocence here. http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=10117
I find it disheartening for someone who seems to understand the reasoning why ESRB is doing the job they do and still bash them.
Because they took a pro-active approach and re-rated this game, they probably save Bethesda a ton of money and prevent a lot of politicians and lawyers like Jack Thompson more ammo to pass laws to regulate the gaming industy.
Pre-existing nude content is cause for a game to be rated Mature. Say I'm a developer that works for a website selling stuff. If I hid sexuel content on our website but I blocked it from casual people who surf our site, what do you think will happen?
Some hacker will break into my site, expose all the sexual content, post it on a website somewhere and 12 years old Miss Betty Sue next door will read it, follow the instructions, hack into my site, see the sexual content, tells her parent...
Betty Sue's parent will sue, I'll go to court and say, "Well, I didn't INTEND for people to crack my site and find it."
Hah, the prosecutor would snicker and start dreaming of how he will spend the millions of dollars that we will be sending to him and poor Betty Sue.
On the other hand, if the content was never there but a hacker broke into our site and added the sexual content, it would be a totally different story, now would it?
ESRB is right on this one and is doing their best to protect the interest of gamers everywhere, they deserve our support instead of the contempt I am seeing here. Without ESRB, politicians would have created their own Rating and Review board a long time ago and then gamers everywhere could kiss their violent games goodbye.
1:57 AM
I've been a modder for over 10 years, and I don't find this entry offensive. Is it because I have a sense of security? I know exactly what Romero's talking about, it's the ESRB spelling DEATH to the mod community because once they get a reality check on what nude mods that have already been done for every moddable game, the ratings would all be hitched up to AO. :rolling teh eyes:
3:14 AM
How big f*ck ESRB is. And.. I hate sims. It is full of boring. Games not made to reproduce life, they were to alter it. Look at TESIII: Morrowind. There were always a beter bodies nude patch. And who changed the ratings? NO-ONE. ESRB does what the politics and those m****ker middle class christian families, who drive their child to use oral sex instead of hitting the real hole. ESRB is a sick community of old m******rs screwing up the game industry to restore the early 60's' polite christian childs.
Bethesda has created a wonderful game and it have really have too many violence and gore...but wait. Does not make games playable? Like in doom the big splats of red textures called blood not earned mature rating? Because ESRB done nothing that times. Damned polithics.
Slaughter in-game not in reality! Its better.
3:20 AM
Sorry Romero, but Chris D. have a point.
3:23 AM
The modders isn't the problem, it's a society that thinks nudity is a bigger problem than violence.
3:41 AM
Modders screwing up the industry... I think that is BS... He added the adult content... so it wasn't in the retail game. Why should things like these affect the rating... I wouldn't blame the modders :|
7:19 AM
Blah BLAH BLAH WHO cares what ROMERO said.
5:34 AM
So... If I rip a Disney flick and add clips of porn here and there, disney needs to change their rating?
LAWL!
7:47 AM
I don't know much about John Romero's personality, and I haven't been a regular reader of whatever he might have been writing through out the years. All I know is his "common knowledge" past, up until the demise at Ion. And that he has once given suggestions regarding long-hair care to a female reader of PlanetQuake years ago, who has seen him on E3 I guess, and loved how healthy and good looking his hair was.
Judging from this single blog, he sounds so awfully trying to be politically correct.
There could even be a mod solely aimed for pornography, a mod in which NPCs actively portray sexual activities. It doesn't matter if the modders make such a mod only for the sake of pornography, or with a message in mind through a somewhat an extreme approach by common standards, or whatever. There's absolutely nothing wrong with any of these, as long as the modders don't advertise it like some "ride on the carousel" (no pun intended).
This whole thing portrays how twisted, or coward the people who think that developers like Beth might be held rightly accountable for what 3rd party does to a game. Politically correct or not, this includes John Romero as well.
Note that, I'm *not* talking about ESRB's decision here. I do believe in the necessity of a structure such as ESRB. Their decision might be questionable of course. After all you just can't simply replace parenting with ESRB. But that wasn't my point anyway. 3rd Part content it is.
At the end, it all comes down to parenting. Once more, parenting is tried to be degraded into a set of mechanic, lifeless rules so the parents could fuck around more freely.
Finally, I don't see any "going down" with the mod community. There are only more newbies and incompetent modders, a lot more "game developer rock star" wannabees than the veterans. One could call that good or bad, but it has nothing to do with mod community going somewhere. Especially now with whatever kinf of content they might be trying to create.
Is it possible that you may be calling it's going down only because of the statistical changes, ie. the ratio of newbie and non-talented modders to talented and veteran modders ( which is a meaningless point anyway, because of the lack of correlation of demographics between the two groups ) ?
Closure: Garbage - "Sex Is Not The Enemy"
3:17 PM
It is very faulty reasoning to think that the modders are to blame in this case, or even that they are causing any financial harm to Take Two or Bethesda. After all, one of the main reasons to buy Oblivion was because the buyer knew it would be provided with so many great mods. That was, in my opinion, the best reason to buy Morrowind. Therefore, the modding community for Morrowind and Oblivion has freely subsidized the sales of those games. I very much doubt that restricting sales to an older audience (with an ineffective ratings regime in any case) would outweigh that.
Although, in all fairness, it's something researchers would have to go out and quantify.
4:01 PM
I wish people would understand this: The ESRB is not changing the rating because of mods, it's changing the rating becuase the topless model IS ON THE DISK! The ESRB doesn't care if the topless model is accessable in the game, they only care that it's on the disk to begin with.
4:40 PM
Yes, the nude file was included on the CD, but there is a reason for this. It is so much easier designing clothing and armor when you have a good replica of the human body. This makes it easier on the designers to texture and skin the game to make it look as realistic as possible.
12:39 AM
TESIV:Oblivion deserves an M rating, not because of potential nudity, but because of the detailed blood, gore, violence and dark themes present during some plot lines (the Dark Brotherhood in particular). ESRB did the right thing, but for the wrong reason, and much too late. This should have been done properly before the game was shipped.
JR Wrote: "You'll probably start seeing game data files becoming encrypted and the open door on assets getting slammed shut just to keep modders from financially screwing the company they should be helping."
That would certainly be a mistake on the developers' part. It has been proven time again that a vibrant third party mod community keeps a game alive and generates sales well past its prime. Half-Life, Neverwinter Nights and TESIII:Morrowind are all good examples of this. It is also a major selling point for new games. I can only speak for myself, but during the last year I got 5 games I would never have bought unless I knew they were moddable, and had an active modding community.
3:02 AM
whether or not oblivion deserves a m rating i cannot say.
however bethseda is not responsible for the plugin in question, they are not responsible for the third party hacking ito the file.
bethseda is only tobe held responsible for the content with in the mentioned third pary plug in, it beloned to bethseda in the first place.
the plugin never should have been mentioned and put on sites like TESource and planetelderscrolls.
the community itself in this way is to blame over this.
however whats done is done.
personally id like to know exactly what the ERSB considers porn, as i dont consider nudity or partial nudity porn.
however i still think its somewhat funny, as we condone our children seeing violence in movies and games, but an exposed female breast is not okay????
there are people laughing at this both here in the USA and in Europe.
PArents, you are responsible for your children, you must pay attention to what games they play and movies they watch, take the time to be with them and you MUST judge what is okay for them to do both in your presence and not in your prensence.
the ERSB should advise, not tell you what to do.
3:19 AM
This rerating has no relevance at all to modding, or to game developers.
It's Bethesda's slip to leave the a render of exposed breasts in the game data that can easily be substituted for the existing covered one. All they had to do was delete one .nif file before going gold, and none of this would have occurred.
The mod community would have subsequently made its own nude mods, Bethesda would be free of any blame, and the ESRB would have no cause to rerate the game.
To quote the ESRB, from http://www.dlmag.com/1516/esrb-responds-to-oblivion-criticism.html
"The ESRB's investigation found that the mod allowed users to change the filename for the female character mesh in order to access the art file that was created by Bethesda. While true that a modification was required to access this file, the changes we implemented last year - expanding our disclosure rules to include locked-out content - were made to prevent these kinds of situations."
IE: It's Bethesda's fault for leaving a file containing breasts in the game. The nude mod was just the way the ESRB discovered it.
Developers don't need to prevent their games from being modified, they simply need to check that they're clean carefully before releasing them.
3:30 AM
I realize this post is going to be at the bottom of the list and is quite late, but I don't really care.
Considering the fact that Romero's last game was a complete piece of shit, and that he and Derek Smart are now of the same rank in the industry (that of the unwanted, unloved black sheep), I think the man needs to keep his fucking mouth shut.
Oblivion Modders should be praised for the free content they release, made with tools PROVIDED BY Bethesda, which add an amazing amount of content, fixes, patches and improvements to an already amazing game. The more modders there are, the better the game experience will be.
Fact of the matter is, Bethesda did this to themselves by making the models able to become topless in the first place. All they did was add a line of code that places the "Bra" model over the tits of the female characters. The modders removed the line of code. If they didn't intend to show nipple-less, strangely textured breasts, it was their own responsibility to make sure that if someone wanted naked chicks in Oblivion, they'd have to model the breasts themselves. And they didn't do that.
Bethesda can't complain. ROMERO shouldn't complain because 1) He's a fuck up, and 2) He didn't make the god damn game.
I guess I should throw in my opinion that the ESRB are a bunch of gutless pussies too afraid of getting sacked to stand up for free speach, creativity and innovation. Man, America sucks.
5:03 AM
I have NO CLUE what the point of this statement is:
What's the point of this all this? That modders are now screwing up the industry they're supposed to be helping. In 1993 we opened up all our data to the industrious and ambitious folks out there who want to see what it's like to be able to make their favorite game a little more like what they'd want.....and get a taste of being a semi-game designer in the process. The most awesome example of what this philosophy has brought is CounterStrike.
That has to be one of the most idiotic comments I have seen yet. Fact is ESRB is busted, this is a silly change for Oblivion as well as for GTA. This is a ridicules comment made by someone I think of as an industry leader.
9:59 AM
Modders are not to blame for the current plight of the videogame industry when it comes to nudity and sex in videogames.
The villian in all of this is the ESRB and the fact that they have sided with anti-videogame politicians and wackos like Jack Thompson in an effort to look good in the media.
Modding was NEVER an issue until the recent anti-videogame movement got lots of publicity. Now the ESRB would rather unjustly punish developers for something that has gone on for years instead of growing a pair of balls and standing up for what is right, and saying that nude patches, etc are outside of the scope of their ratings system.
The ESRB is the one destroying the videogame industry, and unless they change their policies real soon expect dark days ahead for gamedom.
www.newlevelgaming.com
11:27 AM
I have Oblivion, and I tried out this nudity mod to see what all the fuss was about. Some people seem to be under the impression that the mod is completely to blame for this. As far as I can tell, this is not the case:
Oblivion's unclothed females wear, by default, a bra and panties. As far as I can tell, what the modder did was to make a new version of the bra 3D model which is invisible, allowing the skin texture underneath to be seen. This alone didn't justify the re-rating. However, Bethesda seem to have overlooked the fact that the skin texture, although hidden by the bra by default, had nipples drawn on. If they'd simply made the texture completely smooth in the 'naughty areas' then, in my opinion, there'd have been no justification for the ESRB to re-rate the game. The nipples, which were hidden by the bra or other clothing, are what caused the ESRB re-rating. All the modder did was to reveal that they were there.
What it comes down to is this: Game developers need to know that if they leave any hidden assets in the game, modders are going to unlock them, so they'd better either make sure that the hidden assets aren't going to affect the rating, or they should remove them completely.
If I'm wrong about this, and the modder did indeed make the bra invisible *and* drew nipples onto the skin textures, then the ESRB are a bunch of idiots and seriously need to rethink their policies.
8:04 PM
The "mature" rating is quite normal with such a game.
There is a lot of violence involved in the game.
A game that allows the gamer to be able to kill or steal should always be rated "M".
The nudity thing has nothing to do in this matter.
And about modders, they don't have to support, defend or whatever the editor nor the developper of this game. We are customers.
If we cannot play, mod anyway we want, with games that are supposed to be customized like Oblivion is, I don't want this game anymore.
I bought it for what I could do with it, not only for what it proposed "by default" when I did my purchase.
Oblivion not moddable? Keep your game, I want my money back.
11:43 PM
This is Chris Jones from http://www.universeatwar.org/cjones
Have these people looked at the Star Trek game Modding community? Myself and countless other modders have kept the Trek gaming franchise alive and kicking for a long time, way beyond the game's original intent. Most modders have integrity when releasing mods for a game. A few don't but we are dealing with humans here. Not all have honor. Romero does not either, apparently. He does not know how to mod anything, I'll bet.
11:54 PM
Some of you people need to go back to school and learn a thing or two about reading comprehension.
12:17 PM
I'll never understand the bureaucracy. First of all it is a game, if you (the politicians) have nothing better to do with our tax dollars than decide the morality we should follow your in the wrong office. You were hired by the people for the people, not to inflict your own personal political agenda on us. We (the people) will decide if we want to purchase the game with whatever content it provides. Just give us the low down on the box we'll take it from there. By the way I wonder how much profanity rates in a game. Not to distract us to much from Oblivion, but you can download a mod for the Sims 2 that gives full sex and other oral stimulation, and I don't recall that game being targetted. I for one enjoy the realism of a full nude model in the game, both male and female and costuming them up. It is a fantasy game and should offer all aspects of the fantasy world. I'm sure the parents will monitor their children and if they don't then the gaming industry would be the least of their worries. As a minister, I find nothing offensive about the human body in its natural form, and in game context the use of said form. I recently opened a National Geographic with ads that were racier than this mod controversy. So in conclusion, get a life, feed the poor, buy books for our school children, shelter the homeless and stop the senseless waste of tax payer dollars on subjects better left inside the home.
7:12 AM
I've been Playing doom since i was five years old. I'm no different now because i was playing a game for it's rating. i have the same problem with people Blaming Marilyn manson for colombine. if it was really THAT big of a deal right off the bat,no one would have noticed. also,i have seen the hotcoffee mod. it's crap.
If the ratings board thinks for 30 seconds that this will slow sales of any games,they're wrong. i purchased GTA:SanAn without my ID card nor was I asked. most stores and gamers i know pay little or know attention to the ratings of a game. Would tetris be rated M if there was an oversized dot on each piece resembling a female nipple? i think not.
1:38 PM
"13 years for this situation to arise"
Mr. Romero, where have you been? I have had nude mods for games for well over a decade. Wolf3D, Doom, the list goes on forever. I have even created some, while taking a break from making realistic medieval content.
Your tone in attacking the modders is deplorable. Shame on you.
This full blown assault on our freedom and on game companies by the rating Nazis has nothing to do with modders. It has been happening in every medium. It is simply an attampt to control. And your condemning those who have only been a benefit to game companies will not help the situation. It will only cause people like myself to never purchase a product associated with you.
These fascists are only using modders as an excuse to force their will upon others. If modders were not the reason, then something else would be.
And here I thought they changed the rating because some Orc yells to "buy a God damn book".
What's next? A game company being mass arrested because some guy shoots his family over a drug problem?
Execute every person who is involved with any kind of rating system, publicly, and the problem will remedy itself.
8:58 AM
You know the game was misreported to the ESRB for violence, blood, and gore, and the ESRB even said this. If the skin was never there in the game in the first place, the ESRB would have had nothing to go on. Of course, this is all a joke that the video game industry needs to be regulated in some way. It's because people cannot claim responsibility for their actions. If somebody screws up, it wasn't their fault, it was the fault of "insert form of entertainment here". Joe Lieberman sucks.
10:06 AM
Two Things:
-The MAIN reason OB was rerated was for the violence, NOT the nudity.
-The nude skin WAS included with the game, it was NOT a modder add-on. Anybody with half a brain could go ahead and enable it.
11:46 AM
I my Country, Texas, we dont need nudity in games, we just find our own women
11:06 PM
All this will lead to is developers having to twist the law, and modder's becoming extinct.
Locked content is horrible for PC gaming. It is why we thrive. I cannot imagine having no ability to mod the games I play. It gives me hopes of being noticed one day before I finish my degree(or after), and getting a nice ride with a game company.
I'd just play a console if I just wanted to play. PC gaming is ALL ABOUT the mods. All about patches and add-ons.
I can only hope that a developer puts their foot down on the ESRB and takes away their ability to change a rating after the game has been released.
Either that, or I recommend producers start working on NR games... (Not Rated) and taking after movies. Since now-a-days, movies have to do that to add their extra features without getting NC-17+ ratings.
I used to support the ESRB... but after Hot Coffee and watching them fold to the media, I have no respect for them anymore.
I'd write a letter... but I use too many Ellipses... :)
9:06 AM
MR. Romero---( and other gaming gods that have lost their minds)---the ESRB needs to get a clue; as do all the major game companies.They peddle their almost non-playable games upon us; expect us to enhance the gameplay and graphics, fix bugs or whatever, then want to kick us in the head when we add something , or in this case, find something, a little risque'.
This re-rating was, probably, correct, in the fact that it was on the original cd, placed there by bethesda.Do I agree with it? No.Do I agree with you , when you said modders are at fault here? Hell no.Do I think you , and others like you, need to take a step back and look at what you are doing with these games; all the doom clones, 40+ hour bland plotline games, nude art hidden on the cd, and then paying 60 bucks for it; yes I sure do. YOU are ruining the game industry, by completely forgetting why you did this in the first p0lace: cause.....it....was....FUN.
The modders add that now missing piece of fun to today's overhyped, undercontented games.....and yet you want to say it's their fault for finding this stuff? You have gone over the deep end.........
6:27 PM
Dear Mr. Romero:
Let me see if I understand your position correctly:
1) Since the nude skins in question were not added by a mod but simply revealed by one, your basic assertion is that the modding community is entirely responsible for Bethesda artists creating the nude skins which shipped with the game CD.
2) Since the nude skins do not appear in the game but were only used to create armor and other clothing items that fit well and looked right and could have been deleted from the CD before it shipped without affecting gameplay in any way, your assertion is that the modding community is entirely responsible for the game's developers not deleting the nude skins used by the artists before they shipped the CD.
3) Lastly, the reason the ESRB gave for re-rating the game was that there was nude content in it. Your assertion is that the developers are entirely blameless for creating it in the first place, entirely blameless for leaving it on the CD, and entirely blameless for not telling the ESRB about it. The fault and responsibility falls entirely on the modding community, not those who actually created the content in the first place.
Sir, if this truly is your position on this issue, I find I must strongly disagree with all three of your assertations.
6:01 PM
F*CK THE ESRB
if there going to change everuy good game that comes out to M or A then we should not even check the rateings
F*CK YOU ESRB
9:21 PM
Actually, the nudity was already in the data, it just wasn't unlockable in the game. A modder found that the females' bras were seperate items that were easily removed. When Bethesda put out their patch to fix the bugs in the game, the patch also fixed the character skin. Now games with both the nude patch and the official patch have female characters without nipples, yet the bra is still removed by the first patch.
Obviously the information above is not correct. This is just like the GTA hack. In Oblivion, the patch removes clothes, it doesn't create a new skin for the characters.
Many nude mods have been created for Oblivion. And just like the mods for new races or Cloud's buster sword, the ESRB couldn't care less what the mod is. What the ESRB cares about is what Bethesda is distributing, and it containes adult content. Therefore- M rating.
I don't blame anyone for being upset about it, but I just want to put the facts straight for everyone. The nudity was in the game. It was designed by one or more of the employees of Bethesda. They probably got fired. Be mad at the guys that got fired, not the ones that found the nudity while trying to make a mod for it. Unofficial mods aren't looked at by the ESRB, so you can only blame the developers for doing the job meant for the modders.
10:14 PM
It's a sad state of affairs when civilised society is offended by our own naked form. No-one in Oblivion is fucking, this is another misguided over-reaction.
We're all naked when we take off our clothes. A nation that gets so worked up over some nipples needs to take a long hard look at itself before it points this finger.
3:54 PM
How could something like this be dubbed "another videogame sex scandal"? So they design a character wireframe that doesn't have clothing on.. Big deal! (In this case I guess it is) ESRB might as well just rate all 3D games 'M' because I guaruntee all the characters were nude wire-frames with a skin texture at one point. Of course it's built into the game!It has to be! That is how a sprite is designed. It's simple really, Without clothing the character would be naked; as such: without a character there could be no clothing design. To design a layout you need a character without any bulk, and don't say "but they could have underwear" because they do. The fact that someone found a way to take the in-game clothing and discard it doesn't make the game itself "dirty" or "scandalous". Perhaps "risqué", but then again what isn't nowadays? I'm sure that a teen audience (13-17) can handle a little skin. (Have you been to the beach lately?) As my final point I'd like to state that Bethesda specifically designed a set of clothing to cover up any and all shreds of nudity. If a person can figure out how to make that disapear, good for them! But should you tamper with it's rating because someone found out how?
This is just another example of overprotective censorship.
9:13 AM
Well..Im mad because now i cant even get the freaking game..And sadly i dont have an xbox..*sigh* guess i cant enjoy oblivion til im 17..Or until i move out of the house..
8:15 PM
If Bethesda had let the ESRB know about the fact they were shooting for a T rating & they (the ESRB) had seen the file the first time they checked it then it would be rated T not M AKA it's ALL the ESRB's fault for not being efficiant enough to see it the first time through & send it back to Bethesda. TA-DA!!!!!!!! We know who to blame now, not modders (they just brought this to our attention), not Bethesda (sort-of: if they DID let the ESRB know they wanted T then it's not their fault at all), but the ESRB {(this note is to the employers at the ESRB [if they read this stuff]) get better workers on these things fire the idiots who overlooked this and get more efficiant people on this stuff}. Problem solved!!! All of you can stop blabbering about this and play the darn game!
2:02 PM
I have to agree here with most the comments, for a modder to go in and change the way a game performs is fine. Now the game should be rated "as is" and not as what a modder changes on the game.
I however dont think its effected the sales of Oblivion much from the people and contact I know its still one of the best roleplay style games out on the market. I believe G3 gave them a 5/5 rating which is pretty tough to achieve.
We also dont want to punish into the modding community or disable modding completely would ruin the sell value of a game. Then you would be unable to update/expand onto any game if it came down to that. Consider "Expansions" "Patches" down to the code they are only Mods to improve upon the game.
11:15 AM
As for the content already in the game. Yes it appears that in the meshes its already in the game you take the malenude top and replace it on the femaletop to essentially make it nude. Its obvious that it was not intended to be copied over and made that way and the fact that the body mesh has "nipples" already with it was probably used for building 3D meshes such as the armor to display a bit more correctly.
I guess the fact of the matter is it wasnt intended to be used in this matter and a 'code expert' went in and modified essential files to change the way the game behaves. Its not like they made the game to where you strip off your clothing and run around naked.
11:20 AM
umm..you guys know that the nude skins were already in the game right. Modders didnt add the nude skins, they just simply remved the clothing over the skin, so bethesda is the ones who made the nude ksins, all they did was cover them up with clothes.
10:52 AM
This would be the same as if a rated E Mario game was hacked and the character models were replaced with nude ones, so the ESRB re-rates it to M. The ESRB is a bunch of idiots nowadays.
6:49 PM
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5:51 AM
禪師和小偷
紙為媒
腳下的風景
一元錢借貸
遠方的燈光
盲人不盲
不妙的想像
思想，是你的人生部隊長
人生沒有回頭路
被遊戲拯救
enjoy the life
當資本遇上智慧
鎖定目標，追求高績效
心理平衡是好心情的導師
it’s healthy for u
南轅北轍
抱怨上級不如低頭反省自己
傳遞愛心
有想法，更要有行動
你現下的心情對嗎
愛要刻在石頭上
開始下雨
外面的雨漸漸小了
血腥瑪莉
明天休息
下次見
6:17 PM
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2:13 AM
I want you to go look up "The Nameless Mod" for the game Deus Ex, which was one by your sister company which was headed by Warren who didn't fuck up and pre-hyped a bag of shit (even though Deus Ex DID deserve the bitch ad your piece of shit got).
Anyway the above mod is proof that the modding industry still has its strength, which led to several remakes of popular games e.g Goldeneye.
Anyway I find it completely hilarious how you bitch about the modding industry being a load of bullshit. What have you done in the last decade? Daikatana huh, too bad it flopped like a piece of shit.
Thank lord Warren was kind enough to bail out Ion's name with his instant classic Deus Ex.
9:50 PM
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1:18 PM
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4:09 AM
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4:45 AM
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